Accounts on DDNet?

Tell us what ideas you have and what features you would like to see.
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hi_leute_gll
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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by hi_leute_gll » Tue May 09, 2017 12:22 am

Downsides:

- It's impossible to match actually used names to their correct owners.
- DDNet looses Tw's fast entry without any account restriction.
- Essential parts of Tw's community (e.g. name-trolling) will be removed,
--> game will be more boring.
- Most features will not be implemented in a near future, maybe not even in years.


About the current version:
brutaler wrote:- Players can change their nicknames at any time for any nickname they wish,
even already occupied by other player not available on the current server.

- Good players are being faked by people who are spoiling their worked-out reputation.
A big part of this game is trolling, drama, trashtalk, etc.
brutaler wrote: - Any personal data and specific helpful ingame statistics cannot be presented
to the player as there is no guarantee that the nick owner is currently playing.
There isn't any personal data. So how is this a downside?
Ingame statistics can be requested for any name currently.
brutaler wrote: - Administrators cannot really get rid of the disturbing players.
The most commonly used is a temporary ban by IP, which can be easily
bypassed by the intruder by changing his IP (usually using only internet reconnection).
Again: It's part of the game to deal with trolls. This downside only applys to very few people. The amount of them doesn't even reach the second digit.
brutaler wrote: - There is no direct connection between web and ingame profile (only matching by the unverified nickname).
There is no ingame profile. So ofc there is no connection...

About your improvement:
brutaler wrote: + Administrators can easily block disturbing players on the account level. New account creation takes some time, because it require providing new, valid and already not registered email address, which should definitely delay or even makes the incoming insulters tired (fast IP changing wont help anymore).
If you provide things like in-game registration it takes only a short time to write a bot which creates dozens of accounts in just seconds. I saw enough games and forums where people just had multiple accounts as reserve and didn't give a fuck about any ban. Also since DDNet's Mods are a pure mess, this would give more idiots more power. Not really a good thing.
brutaler wrote: + Global notification system can be introduced - players can be informed that his friend is currently in game and is playing “this and this” map
+ Client can read and display some statistics from your playing like last finishes, last maps etc.
This works also without accounts.
brutaler wrote: + Single account scheme gives access to all ddnet resources: web & game.
Only relevant for a few dozen people out of thousands.
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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by Index » Tue May 09, 2017 12:49 am

Unfortuantely, I have to agree with hi_leute :o
This proposed account system might be a good thing, but maybe its just not the right step for teeworlds.
It would for me "destroy" the game (game atmosphere) like it is now, and I don't know if that's the goal..
I probably write more within the next few days, with more answers to the presented concpet.

For now, thank you brutaler (& others) for the update :3
Its impressive work regardless of my opinion.

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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by Welf » Tue May 09, 2017 12:50 am

Just make a new game so we can add account System, moving tiles and all the other cool stuff (e.g. steal the jetpack from ninslash).

We are limited by the fact, that people love their ranks, so we can never improve the game.

Yes it would help alot if we could ban guys like sp someone by account. I already had alot of work with blockers (any mod who truely cared for the players can agree)

But still i guess it wont happen

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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by SPSomeone » Tue May 09, 2017 4:26 am

Welf wrote: Yes it would help alot if we could ban guys like sp someone by account.
i think you mean another someone. i follow all the rules and never block
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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by Ryozuki » Tue May 09, 2017 8:06 am

hi_leute_gll wrote: If you provide things like in-game registration it takes only a short time to write a bot which creates dozens of accounts in just seconds. I saw enough games and forums where people just had multiple accounts as reserve and didn't give a fuck about any ban. Also since DDNet's Mods are a pure mess, this would give more idiots more power. Not really a good thing.

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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by Learath2 » Tue May 09, 2017 11:38 am

For brutaler's proposal I couldn't really quote out different parts so i'll give a general reply:
  • I've solved the username and password problem by not using one at all. The POC I'm working on uses a certificate on the client side as the account, the fingerprint is the username/global-id and the key associated is the "password".
  • I like the idea of accounts having multiple tee's i'll give that a look over.
  • I toyed around with forcing accounts but unless we are breaking vanilla compatibility I don't want to do that. Currently I'm thinking of not supporting any form of plaintext authentication thus only DDNet clients can login. The protocol will be well documented so any client supporting heinrich5991's extended protocol patch and implementing the protocol would be able to register and log-in.
  • Web and game integration would be nice but given I suck with web development will need lots of help on that front :P
  • I was thinking of retiring people finishing for each other all together but would love to hear arguments to keep it.
I can write a more technical document going over the approach I'm thinking about and the crypto if anyone wants.
hi_leute_gll wrote: - It's impossible to match actually used names to their correct owners.
It might be possible, besides we might not have to migrate points at all.
hi_leute_gll wrote: - DDNet looses Tw's fast entry without any account restriction.
I wouldn't let vanilla users use accounts at all, ranking is does not require being logged in or having an account, furthermore the login is automatic. I can't perceive and loss in speed.
hi_leute_gll wrote: - Essential parts of Tw's community (e.g. name-trolling) will be removed,
You say essential part I say annoying. Excuse me if I don't enjoy people smearing my name (don't think anyone actually does).
hi_leute_gll wrote: --> game will be more boring.
Not talking about a gameplay change here.
hi_leute_gll wrote: - Most features will not be implemented in a near future, maybe not even in years.
I'll do my best to implement as much as I can, it'll take time but not years...
hi_leute_gll wrote:
brutaler wrote: - Players can change their nicknames at any time for any nickname they wish,
even already occupied by other player not available on the current server.

- Good players are being faked by people who are spoiling their worked-out reputation.
A big part of this game is trolling, drama, trashtalk, etc.
You enjoy drama?
hi_leute_gll wrote:
brutaler wrote: - Administrators cannot really get rid of the disturbing players.
The most commonly used is a temporary ban by IP, which can be easily
bypassed by the intruder by changing his IP (usually using only internet reconnection).
Again: It's part of the game to deal with trolls. This downside only applys to very few people. The amount of them doesn't even reach the second digit.
You enjoy trolls?
hi_leute_gll wrote:
brutaler wrote: - There is no direct connection between web and ingame profile (only matching by the unverified nickname).
There is no ingame profile. So ofc there is no connection...
Thus the proposal creates one...
hi_leute_gll wrote:
brutaler wrote: + Administrators can easily block disturbing players on the account level. New account creation takes some time, because it require providing new, valid and already not registered email address, which should definitely delay or even makes the incoming insulters tired (fast IP changing wont help anymore).
If you provide things like in-game registration it takes only a short time to write a bot which creates dozens of accounts in just seconds. I saw enough games and forums where people just had multiple accounts as reserve and didn't give a fuck about any ban. Also since DDNet's Mods are a pure mess, this would give more idiots more power. Not really a good thing.
While his proposal has this weakness it's not unfixable, there are methods of mitigating this which we can discuss about.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
brutaler wrote: + Global notification system can be introduced - players can be informed that his friend is currently in game and is playing “this and this” map
+ Client can read and display some statistics from your playing like last finishes, last maps etc.
This works also without accounts.
No it doesn't. How do you propose we find the user to send the notification to? By nickname? Are you okay with notification and whisper stealing? What if the user is not connected?
Index wrote:Unfortuantely, I have to agree with hi_leute :o...
It would for me "destroy" the game (game atmosphere) like it is now, and I don't know if that's the goal..
I would like to hear more about this. What exactly is getting destroyed by a non-intrusive account system where you don't even have to memorize a password?

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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by mokuz » Tue May 09, 2017 1:23 pm

Welf wrote:Just make a new game so we can add account System, moving tiles and all the other cool stuff (e.g. steal the jetpack from ninslash).

We are limited by the fact, that people love their ranks, so we can never improve the game.

Yes it would help alot if we could ban guys like sp someone by account. I already had alot of work with blockers (any mod who truely cared for the players can agree)

But still i guess it wont happen
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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by Konsti » Tue May 09, 2017 1:26 pm

Agree with hi_leute_gll.
You cant add an accountsystem after years of DDNet.
You should have do it when DDNet was founded. But not now, it destroys the whole game and new players will be annoyed by it
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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by Learath2 » Tue May 09, 2017 2:13 pm

Konsti wrote:Agree with hi_leute_gll.
You cant add an accountsystem after years of DDNet.
You should have do it when DDNet was founded. But not now, it destroys the whole game and new players will be annoyed by it
"Destroy" is a strong word. Feel free to elaborate...(or stfu...)

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Re: Accounts on DDNet?

Post by hi_leute_gll » Tue May 09, 2017 2:55 pm

Learath2, you seem to have a totally different proposal for the account system. Thus it would be nice if you could explain yours and also in a way non-IT guys can understand and discuss it. I doubt most people know how a certificate works in IT and what heinrich's protocol patch does.
I will hold back my thoughts about it until then.

About the technical stuff:
Learath2 wrote:
hi_leute_gll wrote: - It's impossible to match actually used names to their correct owners.
It might be possible, besides we might not have to migrate points at all.
So far no one could tell us how it shall be possible. If you have a plan, tell us!
Learath2 wrote:
hi_leute_gll wrote:
brutaler wrote: + Global notification system can be introduced - players can be informed that his friend is currently in game and is playing “this and this” map
+ Client can read and display some statistics from your playing like last finishes, last maps etc.
This works also without accounts.
No it doesn't. How do you propose we find the user to send the notification to? By nickname? Are you okay with notification and whisper stealing? What if the user is not connected?
The friendlist already works without accounts. Displaying who is online on which server isn't really far away from this. Statistics can be seen by everyone (about everyone). E.g. /rank, /points, ddnet.tw/ranks, and so on.

About the effects on the community:
Learath2 wrote:
hi_leute_gll wrote: --> game will be more boring.
Not talking about a gameplay change here.
It is not about gameplay changes at all. Teeworlds is far more than this. Many people who are playing Tw - and here in special DDNet - also play this game because its atmosphere and community.

When Teeworlds was created, accounts weren't that established as they are today. The simple entry to the game by just entering a nickname was kinda an USP for this game. Additionally it has been deployed on all three major systems (Win, Linux & Mac). This made the game very interesting for many people, giving it a chance to get attention, even though it was a small open source project.

As Teeworlds evolved over time also its community grew - highly influenced by its properties. On the one hand many IT-guys came to Teeworlds, since it was open-source, it hasn't any restrictions which would prevent you to try out yourself on mods, bots, or anything else and was available on certain systems.
(What would Tw be without the Quizbot? :o)

On the other hand the community life had to deal with nickname changes, trolls, a not working voting-system, bots, etc...

What did the people do? They started to live with these circumstances. They started to deal trolls with the tools the gameplay gave them. They developed a blocker-mod for id...nice guys. But they also used the freedom to change their names, when they want to or create small highlights. Things which would definitely be different if we had an account system from beginning on.
I won't say it would be worse if it had one - actually no one of us could say for sure. But in the long time of about 10 years the community has been shaped by its origins and thus I don't think it would make much sense to add such an account system now. Imo it is too late to do so.

A further point to watch at is the size of DDNet. DDNet is the first server which reached a size bigger than the rest of tw. Many discussions are based on this fact: moderators, accounts, voting-system, ...
It's simple: More players cause more trouble.^^

Anyway, we have to admit DDNet is shrinking and has passed its zenith. The amount of players is rather decreasing, less maps are created, no new mods or bigger gameplay changes have been established since years. The only real progress made was to make the game a less team and community oriented game with people getting top ranks by only using their dummy. We should not continue this. I personally don't think an account-system will be needed in a long-term, as same as we won't need many moderators anymore. Instead we could scare people away, if we change the basics this community is built on (as already happened).

To answer your questions: Ye, sure. I enjoy trolls and drama - as long as it has its limits. DDNet would be boring without guys like SP, Meskalin or Mithrandir. And even when we don't like certain persons...if we really think about it, we know it would be sad if they would leave, but with a good account system...some people - and with them a big part of this community's flair - would've been gone a long time ago.

My proposal:
There are some really good guys thinking about such improvements. It would be nice if these would rather start to think about how we can fresh up the gameplay with not too big changes. Sure, stuff like the jetpack of Ninslash is great, but it is too much for DDNet. Bigger technical improvements like SDL 2.0 rather seem to be fails than succusful improvements. Why don't we think about how to add "smaller" things to the gameplay? There are people who have already implemented teleportation guns, why don't we try to add this to DDNet? We could make default tune-zones, wich are already set up with approved cmds, so that people could 'learn' these certain combinations and thus don't have problems at every map using tunes. There are multiple possibilities, which would help DDNet much more than technical improvements in the background or an account system.
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