Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

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Should rule 11 be removed?

Please note that results are sorted by decreasing number of votes received.

Yes
21
55%
No
17
45%
 
Total votes: 38

heinrich5991
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by heinrich5991 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:16 pm

The chat that Ryozuki referenced (posted with his permission):
Discord wrote: [7:41 PM] Ryozuki: btw will the ddnet administration do something about the result of the poll in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6530
[8:24 PM] heinrich5991: I think that rule 11 is useful in online communities
[8:25 PM] Ryozuki: so what you think is more important then what 17 people thinks
[8:25 PM] Ryozuki: ?
[8:26 PM] heinrich5991: ddnet is not a direct democracy. if someone were to put a vote on "should we ban chillerdragon from the game" and it'd gain 90% approval, then that'd still not be the resulting action
[8:26 PM] Ryozuki: so what you think is more important then what 17 people thinks so this is true
[8:27 PM] heinrich5991: ddnet is not directed by a direct democracy, yes
[8:27 PM] heinrich5991: I offered you a way to suspend rule 11, in a controlled fashion
[8:28 PM] Ryozuki: i would better love to see you say "so what you think is more important then what 17 people thinks" instead of that superficial phrase
[8:28 PM] Ryozuki: but anyway
[8:29 PM] heinrich5991: I wouldn't want the outcome of arbitrary votes on the forum result in direct consequences
[8:31 PM] Ryozuki: so your opinion is more important than non ddnet staff ones
[8:31 PM] Ryozuki: even if they are lot more than you
[8:31 PM] Ryozuki: thats nice
[8:32 PM] heinrich5991: if someone were to find 17 people in support of banning person X permanently from ddnet, should the admins enforce that vote?
[8:32 PM] heinrich5991: or should they make their opinion "more important" than the 17 people?
[8:33 PM] Ryozuki: i guess that person should be banned yea
[8:33 PM] Ryozuki: btw,
Ryozuki, mokuz, hi_leute_gll, Tezcan, lola, Jesus Christ, SPSomeone, Greeen, Prankster, Pastoer, fokkonaut, worstwish, ghosnon, Ninjed, Lumpy ◐ω◑, Welf, N9mkOik:D
some of them are trolls, but some are long ddnet users
[8:33 PM] heinrich5991: okay, so you'd be fine with someone starting a poll "let's ban ryozuki" and them getting a majority?
[8:33 PM] Ryozuki: Yes i'm fine, if you remove the rule
[8:34 PM] heinrich5991: I doubt it
[8:34 PM] Ryozuki: :shrug:
[8:34 PM] Ryozuki: yeah, i'm sorry, i forgot that your opinion is more valid than others
[8:35 PM] heinrich5991: we have mods on the servers, because the opinion of the majority is not necessarily useful
[8:35 PM] Ryozuki: as i expected ddnet never goes further, every discussion that happens every x times and everything remains equal
[8:36 PM] Ryozuki: 0 actions from admins from user feedback
[8:36 PM] Ryozuki: its awesome
[8:36 PM] heinrich5991: that's untrue
<snip>
[8:36 PM] heinrich5991: I offered you to link your forum where we can discuss without rule 11
[8:37 PM] heinrich5991: please actually do that latter thing
[8:37 PM] Ryozuki: i'm not actually convinced of that later thing
[8:37 PM] heinrich5991: okay
[8:37 PM] Ryozuki: being on another webpage and make them register again
[8:37 PM] Ryozuki: that will make u favour for sure
[8:38 PM] Ryozuki: <snip> which i demanded (1 person) and not accept the removal of rule actually being demanded by more people?
[8:39 PM] heinrich5991: should I rather not <snip>?
[8:39 PM] heinrich5991: I mean, that's not a useful measurement. even if only one person suggests something, it can be a valid concern

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Prankster
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Prankster » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:26 pm

Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
Transparency-wise, recently we've been doing all the rule discussions on discord, in the #general channel where everyone can respond and state their ideas. This topic itself is a discussion on the rule, where we all are pitching in.
LOL everyone expect for people that you disagree with, because they get banned from discord for the rest of their life. I guess this is how communism used to work a few decades ago. You disliked what I said and that I have reported a moderator with good evidence. And since you couldn't really attack it, the easiest solution was to get rid of me, right? I mean, I have evidence that you sent a moderator against me, who knows if you sent others too. And if you did, then I guess it's pretty clear why I became a "troll" pretty fast, that has to be banned asap. I asked multiple times for demos where I block, but interestingly, you haven't sent any. But still the community believes you since you are the admin.
I might be wrong on this one, but you tell me!

Also at least edit your claim: "everyone except Prankster" and "we all except Prankster". And add the others that got banned too like SPSomeone. Just try to make it look less pathetic. Thanks!
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
I strongly believe that the community should have a say in the rules that govern them, but honestly, It'd be ridiculous to discuss staff behaviour in public. With certain people going around trying to get a rise out of staff there are a lot of false-reports and IMHO it's besmirching and leads to nothing but witch-hunting.
Translation: if you make a report against Learath2's friends, then it is a false report that leads nowhere and should be punished. When I made my report, jao encouraged me to do it, because he said he wanted to encourage people to report moderators. He checked them first to decide whether they were legit or not. He found them legit and forwarded them to the staff. If only did I know how mad Learath2 becomes when you report one of his friends.
But since it happens privately according to this rule, it's easier to cover it up, when a report is made. I mean just read it again what he wrote there. You can't really attack that statement since you have no clue what was on the demo. So basically what Learath2 says is presumed true. Can you show us an example for a "false-report" that was made by someone? Since it's so common, you must have a lot of it, so just show us an older one if possible.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
Response time has gotten worse since peoples (lol how was England buddy? xD) real lives got in the way all at the same time and there isn't many of us to begin with. To alleviate that gdin joined us again as he has the free time to deal with DDNet issues now and I'll have more free time in a month or so.
I hope you will have more free time too. I would be glad if we saw more of gdin and less of you tbh. DDNet would finally begin to have a good administration. And also, if you didn't funkick helpers like ChillerDragon, who is very helpful, kind and he is probably the most active member of teeworlds on youtube, but instead promoted him, then you wouldn't have to do so much stuff alone. And please note, that he is not my friend, I only talked to him a few times in tw, before you attack me with stuff like I want to promote my friends to the leadership of DDNet. I just think that he is suitable for being a moderator or even an admin, considering he is very active and looks pretty mature and fair to me. Did you have a minor disagreement with him as well so you removed him too?

Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
Prankster wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:03 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:10 pm
Some very true stuff
Nicely put, I agree with you, admins don't answer to my pms too and when I make a public topic they just lock it and give me a warning.
And you also said that for some people being an admin is just a cool rank - I definitely agree with you on this one, it also suits some moderators.
I was away on vacation, sorry. I've replied to you but I know that it'll lead nowhere. I'll entertain any and every discussion you want when I'm home as long as it is possible that it'll lead somewhere.
Thank you for your reply indeed. I mean even bad admins can do good stuff. I am reacting to that here since currently I see it pointless to discuss in private too. But it may change.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
You also said you have proof of staff being unfair. I'm sure you do, it's your speciality to bait staff members into making decisions that look bad without context. I still don't get why it surprises you that your reports aren't taken that seriously when we fully know they are specifically crafted.
Yes I do have proof, I can back up a lot of my claims. Not all ofc, I make assumptions as well. I am glad that despite the fact that you deem my claims crafted, the others took my report seriously and judged it correspondingly. And this is not as simple as you try to make it look. Just wait for your own demo and see it for yourself.

Also, contrary to what I wrote, I hope to see you soon in game. It's been pretty long since I got banned by you or any moderator in general. I kind of miss it. So see you soon I guess.

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Prankster
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Prankster » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:02 pm

heinrich5991 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:16 pm
The chat that Ryozuki referenced (posted with his permission):
Discord wrote: *The long discord chat, that wasn't put in a spoiler even though mokuz already asked to do so*
Lol Ryozuki, you are a moderator already and still have no clue how DDNet works. Well, better late than never, I guess it's time to face the cold reality bro. Just look what Learath2 does to people that he dislikes, just look what moderators (including you) do at banning people they dislike: how many of them try to make a vote first to see if the majority agrees? This poll worth as much as a vote against a moderator in game: it will just get f4 forced after he logged in.
And to react to you heinrich: the two things (voting someone to be banned and voting about a rule) are two different things. I would demonstrate it like this: you can't make a vote to execute someone, but you can directly or indirectly vote about rules. Indirect means you vote for someone who demonstrates you and he will vote for you. In DDNet we can't vote who should demonstrate us (admins and moderators) and we can't vote directly about the rules. But either ways you are right, since as you said, DDNet is not a democracy. Like it or not, it's that way. And this is what you don't understand Ryozuki.

Learath2
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Learath2 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:06 pm

Prankster wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:26 pm
LOL everyone expect for people that you disagree with, because they get banned from discord for the rest of their life. I guess this is how communism used to work a few decades ago. You disliked what I said and that I have reported a moderator with good evidence. And since you couldn't really attack it, the easiest solution was to get rid of me, right? I mean, I have evidence that you sent a moderator against me, who knows if you sent others too. And if you did, then I guess it's pretty clear why I became a "troll" pretty fast, that has to be banned asap. I asked multiple times for demos where I block, but interestingly, you haven't sent any. But still the community believes you since you are the admin.
I might be wrong on this one, but you tell me!

Also at least edit your claim: "everyone except Prankster" and "we all except Prankster". And add the others that got banned too like SPSomeone. Just try to make it look less pathetic. Thanks!
If I banned people that disagreed with me Ryozuki, Im' Corneum, heinrich and many others wouldn't be on the discord. Yes I did ask a mod to keep an eye on you, because you block every time I turn around or leave for a second. You seem to have an issue on the timeline, you were always a troll, even before I met you, you even managed to get banned by deen. I can't produce any demos, because I'd have to record 24h to keep an eye on you, you like the"oh sorry I failed" approach to blocking.
Everyone except people who have no intention to actually provide input but only to mess with people and waste time.
Prankster wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:26 pm
Translation: if you make a report against Learath2's friends, then it is a false report that leads nowhere and should be punished. When I made my report, jao encouraged me to do it, because he said he wanted to encourage people to report moderators. He checked them first to decide whether they were legit or not. He found them legit and forwarded them to the staff. If only did I know how mad Learath2 becomes when you report one of his friends.
But since it happens privately according to this rule, it's easier to cover it up, when a report is made. I mean just read it again what he wrote there. You can't really attack that statement since you have no clue what was on the demo. So basically what Learath2 says is presumed true. Can you show us an example for a "false-report" that was made by someone? Since it's so common, you must have a lot of it, so just show us an older one if possible.
I literally have no idea what you are talking about, I don't even know which friend of mine you reported. I didn't even know you were an administrative issue rather then a moderation issue until like 2 days ago.
Besides, you and your type are pretty much the only people complaining of staff behaviour anyway.
Most examples of false reports I can share are also all rule 11 violations and thus are deleted. They know their reports are essentially fake and so they don't report it through the appropriate channel.
Prankster wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:26 pm
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
Response time has gotten worse since peoples (lol how was England buddy? xD) real lives got in the way all at the same time and there isn't many of us to begin with. To alleviate that gdin joined us again as he has the free time to deal with DDNet issues now and I'll have more free time in a month or so.
I hope you will have more free time too. I would be glad if we saw more of gdin and less of you tbh. DDNet would finally begin to have a good administration. And also, if you didn't funkick helpers like ChillerDragon, who is very helpful, kind and he is probably the most active member of teeworlds on youtube, but instead promoted him, then you wouldn't have to do so much stuff alone. And please note, that he is not my friend, I only talked to him a few times in tw, before you attack me with stuff like I want to promote my friends to the leadership of DDNet. I just think that he is suitable for being a moderator or even an admin, considering he is very active and looks pretty mature and fair to me. Did you have a minor disagreement with him as well so you removed him too?
Oh no, I missed an apostrophe, what will the queen think of me now....
We don't discuss staffing decisions in public, he was removed and he was told what for.
Also, you seem to be confused, I'm not the one attacking people, I only state my opinion.
Prankster wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:26 pm
Thank you for your reply indeed. I mean even bad admins can do good stuff. I am reacting to that here since currently I see it pointless to discuss in private too. But it may change.
It's not pointless as long as you are willing to stop with the passive aggressive victim act I'm willing to discuss whatever you want.
Prankster wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:26 pm
Yes I do have proof, I can back up a lot of my claims. Not all ofc, I make assumptions as well. I am glad that despite the fact that you deem my claims crafted, the others took my report seriously and judged it correspondingly. And this is not as simple as you try to make it look. Just wait for your own demo and see it for yourself.

Also, contrary to what I wrote, I hope to see you soon in game. It's been pretty long since I got banned by you or any moderator in general. I kind of miss it. So see you soon I guess.
I'm thrilled to see which one you will post and as long as you don't block, you don't have anything to worry about : )

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lola
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by lola » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:48 pm

I want to <snip> you so hard.

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hi_leute_gll
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by hi_leute_gll » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:09 pm

Learath2 wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:13 am
So far it seems to be going well IMHO.
It can't go well if it hasn't started yet. :P

Anyway, thanks for your detailed answers and your interest in other opinions and suggestions.
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hi_leute_gll
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by hi_leute_gll » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:46 pm

Well...if you contact persons in private you should check your pms more often than once a week...
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by hi_leute_gll » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:50 pm

There won't happen anything to that, right?
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elena
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by elena » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:24 pm

omg Ryozuki was a bad mod but at least he took his role seriously pls give him back mod privileges you're all hotheads

this comment was posted without having read the thread or discord (I'm banned from the latter because jao lost his pacifier)

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