Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

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Should rule 11 be removed?

Please note that results are sorted by decreasing number of votes received.

Yes
21
55%
No
17
45%
 
Total votes: 38

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hi_leute_gll
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by hi_leute_gll » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:29 pm

Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
To alleviate that gdin joined us again as he has the free time to deal with DDNet issues now
So, he will kick himself?
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Learath2 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:56 pm

hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:29 pm
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
To alleviate that gdin joined us again as he has the free time to deal with DDNet issues now
So, he will kick himself?
Funny. On a more serious note, how else would you fix the response time?

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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by hi_leute_gll » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm

First of all some admins should start to respond at all. Also it would be a good beginning to take people serious. Even if some people may be trolls or be known for trolling, their issue still can be serious. Also if you handle them seriously and give proper answers instead of insulting them, you would look much more superior to these trolls. But currently you look as foolish as they do.

Btw: I am still waiting for your answer since last summer. aaa agrees with me about gdin, but doesn't want any consequences. heinrich tells me that he doesn't know about anything and won't discuss. Do you really wonder that people then start to create public topics?

As I also already told heinrich in private, generally certain persons would need to start caring for DDNet. Some don't seem to be interested in taking care about the community. They even say that theirself. If then heinrich suggests to make an extra forum for complaints, but wants it to be paid, coded and maintained by other people, just because he himself doesn't want to have any work, he is just creating a picture of him that he wants to keep away as much responsibility from him as possible.
Why would you force the community to create their own forum against the DDNet-staff, if you also instead could start involving them into decisions, moderate the forum again and make the community as community stronger?

But well, if I offer my help to, e.g. implement the technical components needed to moderate the forum or fix bugs of previous updates, then I just get refused, because it is me. Instead they discuss to move the map-testing to Discord, just because jao personally likes it more, not because of good reasoning.
--> Personal problems are more important than DDNet's problems.

There are people in staff who mostly care about their own ass. As long as their name is colored everything is fine. Funfact: aaa wanted to quit DDNet when I did, too. He just wanted to stay until a successor is found. I was already sure that he won't quit and well... 2,5 years later he is still there. Others are only member of the staff because of nepotism: gdin spreads the mod pw to all of his friends and clans. But no one of the admins cares, since gdin himself is already in the admin team, because of friendship only.

tl;dr: Kick people who don't care about DDNet, accept help of people who do, take complaints seriously and be reasonable. That would be a good start to better responses.
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Ryozuki » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:58 pm

Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
To alleviate that gdin joined us again as he has the free time to deal with DDNet issues now and I'll have more free time in a month or so.
He joined due to the reasons hi_leute_gll said, and to be worse: He did nothing as admin since you re-added him. I still see 0 activity from him and i think even with some activity he shouldn't be admin. But ofc he is sitting there nicely already so why bother with it.


I also discussed with heinrich5991 about the poll here, according to him, his opinion is more important than all of the people who voted "Yes" in this poll and so nothing will be done about this. This is how ddnet works.

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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Learath2 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:07 pm

hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
First of all some admins should start to respond at all. Also it would be a good beginning to take people serious. Even if some people may be trolls or be known for trolling, their issue still can be serious. Also if you handle them seriously and give proper answers instead of insulting them, you would look much more superior to these trolls. But currently you look as foolish as they do.
I always try my best to write a well thought out answer even if it's just a waste of time. That's their aim most of the time anyway, either waste time or get a rise out of the staff. Even though we know this we still act pretty professional towards them. Most of them even collect the "insults"(for the lack of a better word) and show them off in their signatures. They aim to get a rise out of staff and when they do it's completely the staffs fault and not their fault.

(Personal opinion) Why we are supposed to tolerate these people are beyond me to be honest. They come around break rules, mock us, mock others and then expect fair treatment. Their position is indefensible in my opinion but feel free to change my mind.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
Btw: I am still waiting for your answer since last summer. aaa agrees with me about gdin, but doesn't want any consequences. heinrich tells me that he doesn't know about anything and won't discuss. Do you really wonder that people then start to create public topics?
(I already told you that I assumed aaa's answer was enough)
Because people willing to "discuss" about staffing aren't willing to discuss at all. They just want me or some other admin to listen to their monologue and agree with them. People were complaining about gdin being inactive so we removed him. Now he is active again and we need the help. I'm starting to think this is more a personal issue than inactivity.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
As I also already told heinrich in private, generally certain persons would need to start caring for DDNet. Some don't seem to be interested in taking care about the community. They even say that theirself. If then heinrich suggests to make an extra forum for complaints, but wants it to be paid, coded and maintained by other people, just because he himself doesn't want to have any work, he is just creating a picture of him that he wants to keep away as much responsibility from him as possible.
Why would you force the community to create their own forum against the DDNet-staff, if you also instead could start involving them into decisions, moderate the forum again and make the community as community stronger?
I don't really agree with the idea of having any public means of reporting people at all. But for the sake of argument let's just say that I was. We don't really have the engineering firepower to create and maintain another portal. We barely have enough to maintain a client and the servers. You also mentioned "paid", I'm pretty sure heinrich never said anything about someone else paying for it. If we had to create a method for public reporting it'd be on the forum with users having only post rights and only allowing staff and the original poster to reply.

This is all hypothetical though. In the end I still do not feel that discussing these matters in the public is a good idea.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
But well, if I offer my help to, e.g. implement the technical components needed to moderate the forum or fix bugs of previous updates, then I just get refused, because it is me. Instead they discuss to move the map-testing to Discord, just because jao personally likes it more, not because of good reasoning.
--> Personal problems are more important than DDNet's problems.

I wasn't here for the beef between you and everyone else and I don't want to assume things. The only thing I can say about this is you never offered "me" any help (not sure if you did to others). Moving map-testing to discord was jao's decision and we didn't really object given map-testing was moving at a snail's pace and we thought it might help. I also agree that it isn't an ideal platform for it but neither is the forum. Back a year ago I offered to code a portal for map testing but testing people informed me that they need no change.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
There are people in staff who mostly care about their own ass. As long as their name is colored everything is fine. Funfact: aaa wanted to quit DDNet when I did, too. He just wanted to stay until a successor is found. I was already sure that he won't quit and well... 2,5 years later he is still there. Others are only member of the staff because of nepotism: gdin spreads the mod pw to all of his friends and clans. But no one of the admins cares, since gdin himself is already in the admin team, because of friendship only.
What ass is there to care about? This is a community of a handful people at most, who cares about the coloured names?
You keep asking for people to quit but also want response times to improve, idk how to make that happen to be frank.
To your second point about nepotism, gdin didn't make/remove anyone(s) mod in 2 years, gdin wasn't even here the last 2 years. Also who is gdin's friend that got him on the admin team? I saw no push to take him back from anyone. We all just agreed that we needed the extra hand and he had the time for it.
Ryozuki wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:58 pm
He joined due to the reasons hi_leute_gll said, and to be worse: He did nothing as admin since you re-added him. I still see 0 activity from him and i think even with some activity he shouldn't be admin. But ofc he is sitting there nicely already so why bother with it.
And you know this how? I don't mean to be rude but you can't possibly know how this happened, you can only assume and you always seem to assume the worst from us even when we have the best of intentions. For the last time, he said he had free-time and wanted to help out, we decided extra help doesn't hurt.
Ryozuki wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:58 pm
I also discussed with heinrich5991 about the poll here, according to him, his opinion is more important than all of the people who voted "Yes" in this poll and so nothing will be done about this. This is how ddnet works.
This forum is barely representative of the entire community and the poll is only a way to discuss things. Did heinrich actually say that or did you over-interpret his statement and restate it in a sensational way? Either way yes DDNet is not a democracy, nor would it work well as one as we don't have enough people for it. And no, the type of democracy you keep mentioning doesn't even exist in modern countries, nor did it exist in ancient Greece.

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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by gdin » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:00 pm

Ryozuki wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:58 pm
He joined due to the reasons hi_leute_gll said
For one thing, this is just straight up false. What makes you think that you know exactly why I joined back and what my motives are, and that these are all correct? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm not going to say much more because I don't want to keep this argument going. If I feel the need to make a massive "justify my existence" post, I will, but as of now I only see Ryozuki and leute complaining about me. If enough people care to speak up, then I'll go ahead, but as of now it seems to be a small minority.

I too believe in democracy and the ability to discuss rules such as this, so if enough people really want me to fuck off, then so be it. Not seeing it right now, though.



As a side note, if people have issues that need resolving, or they're feeling like the response time is quite slow, feel free to message me and I can ensure that I'll respond in a prompt manner. I tend to be busy on weekends, but during the week I'll usually get back to you within hours, and if it isn't something I can solve or help with directly, I'll at least direct it to the appropriate party.

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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by hi_leute_gll » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm

Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:07 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
First of all some admins should start to respond at all. Also it would be a good beginning to take people serious. Even if some people may be trolls or be known for trolling, their issue still can be serious. Also if you handle them seriously and give proper answers instead of insulting them, you would look much more superior to these trolls. But currently you look as foolish as they do.
I always try my best to write a well thought out answer even if it's just a waste of time. That's their aim most of the time anyway, either waste time or get a rise out of the staff. Even though we know this we still act pretty professional towards them. Most of them even collect the "insults"(for the lack of a better word) and show them off in their signatures. They aim to get a rise out of staff and when they do it's completely the staffs fault and not their fault.

(Personal opinion) Why we are supposed to tolerate these people are beyond me to be honest. They come around break rules, mock us, mock others and then expect fair treatment. Their position is indefensible in my opinion but feel free to change my mind.
If you would show that you are on a higher level than trolls, then other people would believe you more, stop caring for trolls and so on. If you just act as they do with insults and such, you are just a troll, too. Yes, it seems like you personally do spend some time on your posts, but there are other admins who e.g. just lock topics, edit "<snip>" into them, insult other people and so on.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:07 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
Btw: I am still waiting for your answer since last summer. aaa agrees with me about gdin, but doesn't want any consequences. heinrich tells me that he doesn't know about anything and won't discuss. Do you really wonder that people then start to create public topics?
(I already told you that I assumed aaa's answer was enough)
Because people willing to "discuss" about staffing aren't willing to discuss at all. They just want me or some other admin to listen to their monologue and agree with them. People were complaining about gdin being inactive so we removed him. Now he is active again and we need the help. I'm starting to think this is more a personal issue than inactivity.
If you would act at all, then people would also accept if you don't agree with them sometimes. But since admins (almost) never react to any complaint, it rather seems like you don't want to react. Then every next complaint which gets ignored makes people even more angry and then they are even less open for reasonable arguments.
If you need the help, why don't you accept jao as admin then? (answer: aaa is paranoid and believes that I abuse jao to get influence (his words)). And why don't you want my help with the forum then?
These are just two examples...I remember that even when I was admin, I had to take care about new technical staff, because the technical guys didn't give a fuck. So these people never got really involved and disappeared again. There could be much more coders and technical helpers, if the technical team leaders back then would have wanted to accept this help and gave them a chance to learn what to do. It's just always the same...since years...again and again.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:07 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
As I also already told heinrich in private, generally certain persons would need to start caring for DDNet. Some don't seem to be interested in taking care about the community. They even say that theirself. If then heinrich suggests to make an extra forum for complaints, but wants it to be paid, coded and maintained by other people, just because he himself doesn't want to have any work, he is just creating a picture of him that he wants to keep away as much responsibility from him as possible.
Why would you force the community to create their own forum against the DDNet-staff, if you also instead could start involving them into decisions, moderate the forum again and make the community as community stronger?
I don't really agree with the idea of having any public means of reporting people at all. But for the sake of argument let's just say that I was. We don't really have the engineering firepower to create and maintain another portal. We barely have enough to maintain a client and the servers. You also mentioned "paid", I'm pretty sure heinrich never said anything about someone else paying for it. If we had to create a method for public reporting it'd be on the forum with users having only post rights and only allowing staff and the original poster to reply.

This is all hypothetical though. In the end I still do not feel that discussing these matters in the public is a good idea.
You don't need much "engineering firepower" to create an own forum section and to give appropriate rights to certain user groups.
heinrich wants it to be hosted on a non-DDNet-server, thus someone would need to pay for it, which is kinda hilarious since people are already donating to DDNet, and heinrich requires them to pay even more for such a thing.
If you read my posts carefully you see that I agree that we shouldn't discuss about single staff-members in the forums, but that would require the admins to handle complaints reasonable, which doesn't happen. Besides that in many forums there is a thread where you can discuss about the general forum moderation. You can discuss whether mods should be more or less hard to users, why topics are locked and so on. This means that if you give people room to do more general discussions, while handling complaints reasonable and showing them that, e.g. bad mods get sorted out, then this would be a progress and then there would be less need for people to complain.
You could also e.g. make a rule that people first need to contact admins privately and only if they think that doesn't help they can make a public topic. That way strong abuses won't land in public, if you react to them and if you do your job good, you know that there will only be public complaints which aren't too bad or where you can give proper arguments why you act like you do. In combination with the function for admin approval of posts, the classical witch hunting would be banned, while the people still have that possibility of public discussions.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:07 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
But well, if I offer my help to, e.g. implement the technical components needed to moderate the forum or fix bugs of previous updates, then I just get refused, because it is me. Instead they discuss to move the map-testing to Discord, just because jao personally likes it more, not because of good reasoning.
--> Personal problems are more important than DDNet's problems.

I wasn't here for the beef between you and everyone else and I don't want to assume things. The only thing I can say about this is you never offered "me" any help (not sure if you did to others). Moving map-testing to discord was jao's decision and we didn't really object given map-testing was moving at a snail's pace and we thought it might help. I also agree that it isn't an ideal platform for it but neither is the forum. Back a year ago I offered to code a portal for map testing but testing people informed me that they need no change.

I did to jao and heinrich. If you can't communicate that between each other, it's not my fault.
Map-Testing is slowly because of jao investing time into moving it to Discord instead of testing and because the new testing group failed as expected due to jao being inactive in that. Before that the pace was totally fine...the amount of threads and releases were steady.
The forum is totally fine for testing. And yes, there is no need to change, neither to Discord. I am into DDNet's Map-Testing since 4 years and I never had the feeling that the platform is the limiting factor.
Also yet again no one asks the community if they want to move the testing-section or if there are other ideas.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:07 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:50 pm
There are people in staff who mostly care about their own ass. As long as their name is colored everything is fine. Funfact: aaa wanted to quit DDNet when I did, too. He just wanted to stay until a successor is found. I was already sure that he won't quit and well... 2,5 years later he is still there. Others are only member of the staff because of nepotism: gdin spreads the mod pw to all of his friends and clans. But no one of the admins cares, since gdin himself is already in the admin team, because of friendship only.
What ass is there to care about? This is a community of a handful people at most, who cares about the coloured names?
You keep asking for people to quit but also want response times to improve, idk how to make that happen to be frank.
To your second point about nepotism, gdin didn't make/remove anyone(s) mod in 2 years, gdin wasn't even here the last 2 years. Also who is gdin's friend that got him on the admin team? I saw no push to take him back from anyone. We all just agreed that we needed the extra hand and he had the time for it.
There are people who if they get kicked then cry as long as it needs to re add them...Everyone here knows who I am talking about.
I want people who harm the community to leave, not people who really help.
That gdin wasn't involved into moderators for 2 years is a completely wrong information you have there. He introduced the council in the beginning of last year and was active there over the most time of the year. Before that he was the main guy deciding about mods.
I guess, you know better who added him back...
And again: If gdin applies you need the extra hand, but if others apply you don't? Seems legit. Besides that I don't know why you need full access to all servers to be a helping hand. You don't need admin rights to, e.g. lead the council. And when jao applied, it has been said that he doesn't need the admin rights anyway...but gdin does? Makes sense...not.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:07 pm
Ryozuki wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:58 pm
He joined due to the reasons hi_leute_gll said, and to be worse: He did nothing as admin since you re-added him. I still see 0 activity from him and i think even with some activity he shouldn't be admin. But ofc he is sitting there nicely already so why bother with it.
And you know this how? I don't mean to be rude but you can't possibly know how this happened, you can only assume and you always seem to assume the worst from us even when we have the best of intentions. For the last time, he said he had free-time and wanted to help out, we decided extra help doesn't hurt.
If there isn't an objective reason why he should be admin and if he can't even tell himself why he is admin, there is just one possibility left: personal reasons.
For the last time, extra help doesn't hurt if it is gdin, but it does if it is someone else.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:07 pm
Ryozuki wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:58 pm
I also discussed with heinrich5991 about the poll here, according to him, his opinion is more important than all of the people who voted "Yes" in this poll and so nothing will be done about this. This is how ddnet works.
This forum is barely representative of the entire community and the poll is only a way to discuss things. Did heinrich actually say that or did you over-interpret his statement and restate it in a sensational way? Either way yes DDNet is not a democracy, nor would it work well as one as we don't have enough people for it. And no, the type of democracy you keep mentioning doesn't even exist in modern countries, nor did it exist in ancient Greece.
I agree with you, that such a server structure shouldn't be democratic. But that doesn't mean to not give a fuck about what the community thinks. Anyway, since this a topic about the forum, I guess the forum is representative for the forum.

gdin wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:00 pm
Ryozuki wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:58 pm
He joined due to the reasons hi_leute_gll said
For one thing, this is just straight up false. What makes you think that you know exactly why I joined back and what my motives are, and that these are all correct? Please don't put words in my mouth.
You even said yourself that you don't have any certain task for which you have been added back to the admin team.
gdin wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:00 pm
I'm not going to say much more because I don't want to keep this argument going. If I feel the need to make a massive "justify my existence" post, I will, but as of now I only see Ryozuki and leute complaining about me. If enough people care to speak up, then I'll go ahead, but as of now it seems to be a small minority.

I too believe in democracy and the ability to discuss rules such as this, so if enough people really want me to fuck off, then so be it. Not seeing it right now, though.
Apparently I saw tons of complaints about your moderator decisions in this forum, but also in-game. That is definitely not just Ryozuki and me who can't understand why you e.g. added Aoe back to Moderators (maybe because your are in his clan?). When you introduced the council you said yourself that the reason for creating that council are the many complaints you got...
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Learath2 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 pm

hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
If you need the help, why don't you accept jao as admin then? (answer: aaa is paranoid and believes that I abuse jao to get influence (his words)). And why don't you want my help with the forum then?
I really don't know what you did to gain such an interesting reputation but I wouldn't mind you helping out with the forum at all. As long as the others feel it's okay.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
You don't need much "engineering firepower" to create an own forum section and to give appropriate rights to certain user groups.
I already said that's how I would implement it if we were to ever allow public reports.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
heinrich wants it to be hosted on a non-DDNet-server, thus someone would need to pay for it, which is kinda hilarious since people are already donating to DDNet, and heinrich requires them to pay even more for such a thing.
I only ever heard him say that it shouldn't be on the same place as the forum, not that it shouldn't be hosted on the same server, but if we come to a conclusion that something like this is needed, I'll gladly host it for you myself.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
Besides that in many forums there is a thread where you can discuss about the general forum moderation. You can discuss whether mods should be more or less hard to users, why topics are locked and so on. This means that if you give people room to do more general discussions, while handling complaints reasonable and showing them that, e.g. bad mods get sorted out, then this would be a progress and then there would be less need for people to complain.
We already do allow discussion of the rules themselves and the approach taken by the team in general.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
You could also e.g. make a rule that people first need to contact admins privately and only if they think that doesn't help they can make a public topic. That way strong abuses won't land in public, if you react to them and if you do your job good, you know that there will only be public complaints which aren't too bad or where you can give proper arguments why you act like you do. In combination with the function for admin approval of posts, the classical witch hunting would be banned, while the people still have that possibility of public discussions.
This also sounds like a reasonable way to handle public reporting.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
Map-Testing is slowly because of jao investing time into moving it to Discord instead of testing and because the new testing group failed as expected due to jao being inactive in that. Before that the pace was totally fine...the amount of threads and releases were steady.
Before that when? The last time the release rate was consistent was when RayB, Welf and jao worked together.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
The forum is totally fine for testing. And yes, there is no need to change, neither to Discord. I am into DDNet's Map-Testing since 4 years and I never had the feeling that the platform is the limiting factor.
Also yet again no one asks the community if they want to move the testing-section or if there are other ideas.
Testers are a small group, we don't have that many anymore, jao wanted to try something new and we decided it was a good enough idea to give it a try. I do feel there is much more interactivity the way they are working now, better input from others but it'd be better if jao commented on this as I'm not directly involved in it.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
That gdin wasn't involved into moderators for 2 years is a completely wrong information you have there. He introduced the council in the beginning of last year and was active there over the most time of the year. Before that he was the main guy deciding about mods.
I guess I put an extra year there, time flew by slower then I thought :) But still I joined back in 17 May 2017, and when I joined gdin was already mostly inactive in that aspect. I don't know where you get your inside information but it seems to be off.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
I guess, you know better who added him back...
And again: If gdin applies you need the extra hand, but if others apply you don't? Seems legit. Besides that I don't know why you need full access to all servers to be a helping hand. You don't need admin rights to, e.g. lead the council. And when jao applied, it has been said that he doesn't need the admin rights anyway...but gdin does? Makes sense...not.
Every time jao asked to be an admin we brought it up and discussed it. I can't change peoples opinions nor can I force them to vote a certain way. I can only bring up discussions.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
If there isn't an objective reason why he should be admin and if he can't even tell himself why he is admin, there is just one possibility left: personal reasons.
For the last time, extra help doesn't hurt if it is gdin, but it does if it is someone else.
I guess there is no way I can please you with this one as you will only accept us kicking gdin. So I think we can just drop this discussion now and talk about it later when gdin actually had a chance to do anything.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
Apparently I saw tons of complaints about your moderator decisions in this forum, but also in-game. That is definitely not just Ryozuki and me who can't understand why you e.g. added Aoe back to Moderators (maybe because your are in his clan?). When you introduced the council you said yourself that the reason for creating that council are the many complaints you got...
If you mean the last time, it wasn't gdin. Aoe asked me if he could moderate again, I discussed with jao and snail who agreed that there'd be no harm in making him moderator on condition and after we decided it was fine, Aoe himself said he wouldn't have the time for it so we removed him again.

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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by hi_leute_gll » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:11 pm

Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 pm
We already do allow discussion of the rules themselves and the approach taken by the team in general.
Ye and that's a good thing, except heinrich censoring, moving and locking topics here.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
Map-Testing is slowly because of jao investing time into moving it to Discord instead of testing and because the new testing group failed as expected due to jao being inactive in that. Before that the pace was totally fine...the amount of threads and releases were steady.
Before that when? The last time the release rate was consistent was when RayB, Welf and jao worked together.
The last time was a few weeks ago. We had 1,5 release per 2 weeks in average consistently, which was totally fine, since there are just not enough new maps for more releases. jao is just investing time into the Discord-thingy now instead of actual testing, which resulted in less releases and a big backlog. Also there was some weird mapping-wave the last few weeks. But generally you can't blame his output, he is doing a good job with it.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
The forum is totally fine for testing. And yes, there is no need to change, neither to Discord. I am into DDNet's Map-Testing since 4 years and I never had the feeling that the platform is the limiting factor.
Also yet again no one asks the community if they want to move the testing-section or if there are other ideas.
Testers are a small group, we don't have that many anymore, jao wanted to try something new and we decided it was a good enough idea to give it a try. I do feel there is much more interactivity the way they are working now, better input from others but it'd be better if jao commented on this as I'm not directly involved in it.
I usually try to see things more in its bigger context. Since map-testing is the biggest part of this forum, I think removing it could finally ruin the forum and making it obsolete. There won't be much activity just for an occasional discussion about DDNet or a skin posted. People could completely move to Discord then. But Discord has some flaws for that, since it is mainly a chat-tool, which means that anything you write kinda disappears after some time. A forum allows a more structural view on topics and also an easier filing of finished discussions. Thus I think it is good to have the forum for certain types of topics such as discussions, skins, artwork and arguably also Map-Testing. Removing the latter could turn out bad for it.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
That gdin wasn't involved into moderators for 2 years is a completely wrong information you have there. He introduced the council in the beginning of last year and was active there over the most time of the year. Before that he was the main guy deciding about mods.
I guess I put an extra year there, time flew by slower then I thought :) But still I joined back in 17 May 2017, and when I joined gdin was already mostly inactive in that aspect. I don't know where you get your inside information but it seems to be off.
According to a former council member he was still in it in May. But sure, I can't really say what exactly he did there. Anyway, he definitely was the officially responsible guy back then.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
I guess, you know better who added him back...
And again: If gdin applies you need the extra hand, but if others apply you don't? Seems legit. Besides that I don't know why you need full access to all servers to be a helping hand. You don't need admin rights to, e.g. lead the council. And when jao applied, it has been said that he doesn't need the admin rights anyway...but gdin does? Makes sense...not.
Every time jao asked to be an admin we brought it up and discussed it. I can't change peoples opinions nor can I force them to vote a certain way. I can only bring up discussions.
Better bring arguments instead of discussions only. And even if there are good arguments for this single case, my general complaint that help is only wanted if it is a friend who wants to help, still stands.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
If there isn't an objective reason why he should be admin and if he can't even tell himself why he is admin, there is just one possibility left: personal reasons.
For the last time, extra help doesn't hurt if it is gdin, but it does if it is someone else.
I guess there is no way I can please you with this one as you will only accept us kicking gdin. So I think we can just drop this discussion now and talk about it later when gdin actually had a chance to do anything.
Yes, sure. In 4 weeks you can't expect someone to do something. :roll:
Also it is really interesting, that you added him as admin for the possibility that he maybe some time will do something, while others who already do help, get ignored. Makes sense.
Learath2 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:33 pm
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:26 pm
Apparently I saw tons of complaints about your moderator decisions in this forum, but also in-game. That is definitely not just Ryozuki and me who can't understand why you e.g. added Aoe back to Moderators (maybe because your are in his clan?). When you introduced the council you said yourself that the reason for creating that council are the many complaints you got...
If you mean the last time, it wasn't gdin. Aoe asked me if he could moderate again, I discussed with jao and snail who agreed that there'd be no harm in making him moderator on condition and after we decided it was fine, Aoe himself said he wouldn't have the time for it so we removed him again.
It is not the first time Aoe became Mod.^^ Also it was one example of many. There are more than two members in Infamous. :)
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Learath2
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Learath2 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:13 am

hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:11 pm
The last time was a few weeks ago. We had 1,5 release per 2 weeks in average consistently, which was totally fine, since there are just not enough new maps for more releases. jao is just investing time into the Discord-thingy now instead of actual testing, which resulted in less releases and a big backlog. Also there was some weird mapping-wave the last few weeks. But generally you can't blame his output, he is doing a good job with it.
Agreed that he is doing a good job, which is why when he said he wanted to try moving things to discord we trusted him. So far it seems to be going well IMHO. But as said I'm not really the point person here.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:11 pm
I usually try to see things more in its bigger context. Since map-testing is the biggest part of this forum, I think removing it could finally ruin the forum and making it obsolete. There won't be much activity just for an occasional discussion about DDNet or a skin posted. People could completely move to Discord then. But Discord has some flaws for that, since it is mainly a chat-tool, which means that anything you write kinda disappears after some time. A forum allows a more structural view on topics and also an easier filing of finished discussions. Thus I think it is good to have the forum for certain types of topics such as discussions, skins, artwork and arguably also Map-Testing. Removing the latter could turn out bad for it.
I'd actually like it if the forum was used more for discussions, skins, artwork, WIP maps. It wouldn't be too nice to have everyone move to Discord but I doubt it'd happen since the people currently using the forum are also using discord concurrently.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:11 pm
Yes, sure. In 4 weeks you can't expect someone to do something. :roll:
Also it is really interesting, that you added him as admin for the possibility that he maybe some time will do something, while others who already do help, get ignored. Makes sense.
It's not like we do staffing decisions in public, he has been contributing to the internal discussions. Moreover, it's my fault that he couldn't start doing sysop work. I had to go on a "vacation" for personal reasons and had to go for 2 weeks a week after he joined. I'll bring him up to speed tomorrow.
hi_leute_gll wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:11 pm
It is not the first time Aoe became Mod.^^ Also it was one example of many. There are more than two members in Infamous. :)
I just wanted to clarify that one. I don't really like to follow drama and the clans so I don't really know who is in Infamous. I'll give it a look over :)

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