Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

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Should rule 11 be removed?

Please note that results are sorted by decreasing number of votes received.

Yes
21
55%
No
17
45%
 
Total votes: 38

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Ryozuki
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Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Ryozuki » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:12 pm

The rule says:
11. Moderators and administrators have the final say on anything.
If you have a problem, you may make a complaint to them directly and not publicly on the forum. Creating threads or posts that question or reference administrative decisions or potential administrative decisions, such as post removals and thread closures, is not permitted. We are not perfect and if you feel that we have made a mistake, please privately contact a staff member and we will review the situation.
In my opinion this should be removed, specially the part about not being able to create threads that question the administrative decisions.

Put governments for example, there is always the opposition, and the one with power, usually in normal countries with "normal" democracy the opposition can speak freely. Yet the power will have majority and thus the final vote.

I like open discussions where everyone can give his opinion and imo it shouldn't be private. I think everyone should know what administration is doing to judge if they are doing correctly or not. There are sure some things u want to keep private such as password etc. But lot of decisions dont involve that, they ofc prefer people to not know and keep them ignorant thats why they want private discussions about staff, and their only argument is that it can start witch hunting. But they can use their moderative power to prevent that.

Also i want to know why chillerdragon was removed from helper rank. According to him there was an opinion difference and that's why he got removed, instead of his actions as staff member.

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mokuz
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by mokuz » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:31 pm

You can’t vote on this poll. Reason: You haven’t posted in this topic.

Please fix.
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Ryozuki
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Ryozuki » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:35 pm

mokuz wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:31 pm
You can’t vote on this poll. Reason: You haven’t posted in this topic.

Please fix.
fixed

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Ravie
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Ravie » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:41 pm

I think showing all potentially controversial topics going on inside DDNet publicly is just asking for more pointless drama.
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hi_leute_gll
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by hi_leute_gll » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:22 pm

Generally it makes sense to not discuss staff members in public. First of all DDNet isn't a real democracy and such server-systems shouldn't be one. Also if people post complaints in public, they often post wrong facts, describe the situation very subjectively, or even lie on purpose to troll. Then staff members get flamed even though they didn't do anything wrong, just because someone spreads wrong facts.

The problem however is that then the admins need to be very responsive and interested in proper discussion to handle complaints in private. The DDNet admins don't. Lately one of them even told me directly that he isn't interested in a discussion at all. As a result of this bad community management the players then start to create posts in the forums, since it is their only possibility to gain attention to their problem, if the admins don't care.

That's also the reason why I often post aggressive, provocative posts, because it is the only chance to force admins to proper answers. I would prefer to just discuss on a normal base, but it is not possible.

So to sum this up: It makes sense to handle complaints in private, but this needs active and responsive admins. Since these don't exist on DDNet, I would prefer public complaints so that the community can deal with these problems on their own, even though it will lead to wrong accusations and such.
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lola
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by lola » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:53 pm

YES! Remove it! I agree with Ryozuki (for the first time). I dont like when this is all private! Often you just can't find out why did they banned you, maybe just for fun (usually) but maybe not!

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Shishigami
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Shishigami » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:38 pm

Personally, I think the rule is perfectly fine as-is, but I'd like to see more transparency from staff.
I often read complaints in the forum that will be closed due to rule 11, but then you never hear if or what is being done about it.
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jao
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by jao » Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:55 pm

As someone with more insight than probably anyone else, I can say that almost everything that gets to us is discussed. The hard part is to come to conclusions and to actually execute decisions. Often other topics come up and others are forgotten, sometimes you need to wait days/weeks for someone due to them being busy. Also, sometimes people seem to not feel resonpsible..
After all that would be the same with a more public fashion. You will always need responsible people in the background, so I don't see a reason to change.
Shishigami wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:38 pm
Personally, I think the rule is perfectly fine as-is, but I'd like to see more transparency from staff.
I often read complaints in the forum that will be closed due to rule 11, but then you never hear if or what is being done about it.
Those forum complaints are mostly ignored since they never contain sufficient evidence. (And people don't continue to contact an Admin with it after they're told to)

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hi_leute_gll
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by hi_leute_gll » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:33 pm

jao wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:55 pm
After all that would be the same with a more public fashion. You will always need responsible people in the background, so I don't see a reason to change.
It wouldn't be the same. If it is public then e.g. people know which moderators abuse their powers and thus are able to stay away from them to not risk a ban.
jao wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:55 pm
Those forum complaints are mostly ignored since they never contain sufficient evidence. (And people don't continue to contact an Admin with it after they're told to)
They don't contact admins, because they don't get an answer anyway. There were quite a few cases with "sufficient evidence" which did never result in any consequence.
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Prankster
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Re: Removal of Rule 11 in User Guidelines

Post by Prankster » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:40 pm

It's pretty odd, but I have to say I agree with Ryozuki. This is the rule that gives moderators and admins complete power, which wouldn't be a problem at all, but they don't use it well. I have to follow this shitty rule, but moderators and admins can dismiss the "Maintain fair judgement and treatment to all" rule. I was banned from discord, made a public topic, got a warning issued, then I tried to follow this rule and contacted "aaa" with a long, polite message, and all he replied was "no" (I mean I appreciate the humor, but still). Then I wrote a message to Learath2, he didn't reply. And since admins don't do shit, and I can't make public complaints, it's pretty much fucked. You might think that "who cares, it's just Prankster", but if it happened to me, it can happen to other people too.
And if you report a moderator in private, I can tell you there won't be consequences (I did and I got the reply "he will probably be removed", lol nothing happened. And I am not saying that he should be removed, if you know who I am talking about, I am just saying it is pathetic to say something like this and then do nothing at all and don't even contact the person who made the report about the final decision). If you reported him publicly however, people would see what kind of shit he had done and then the admins would be forced to actually find treatment for the situation. And I talked about moderator reporting, if you ever encounter a problem with an admin, then it's pretty much game over, I can tell you. I have an amazing proof of Learath2 being extremely unfair with me (it happened before I became widely known as a complete moron), but I can tell you sending it in private to any admin would be just as useless as asking the skin database crew to fix the name of the skin "atlas_by_whis" (lol the issue was reported on 2016 dec and still no fix).
Please don't take away our freedom of speech, thank you very much!

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