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New Point-system?

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:52 pm
by hi_leute_gll
In the following post we will share with you the ideas about the point-system we collected in the last weeks. We summed it up to 2 basic ideas and 1 idea which tries to merge both. With this thread we would like to ask you to share our ideas and wishes with us, so that we can figure a final system which is fine for as many players as possible.

A short overview:
  • Current state and problems:
    • 3 lists: Points, Team Ranks, Ranks
    • /points only for Points
    • complains that Team Ranks and Ranks are not enough valuable -> less speedrunning
    Idea-set 1:
    • merging Ranks and Points into one list
    • amount of rank points depends on amount of finishes and finish/tee-ratio

      Problems:
      • most people don't care about ranks
      • might be confusing
      • no good calculation-system so far
      • hard work for the server
    Idea-set 2:
    • add all 3 lists to /points
    • making difference of global- and server-points for players who focus on certain servers

      Problems:
      • more chat spam*
      • do people care about difference of global- and server-points?
    Idea-set 1 + 2:
    • add all 3 lists to /points (global)
    • calculate rank-points different

      Problems:
      • more chat spam*
      • no good calculation-system so far
*could maybe replaced/expanded by: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2327


More detailed explanations:
  • Idea-set 1Show
    kamillentee wrote:Actually we are developing a system what will reward a top rank on normal maps but will especcially reward speedrun mapsĀ¹ even better. We are NOT gonna remove the points for finishing maps. Ranks would just play a bigger role in the points system. Not like now where nobody care about rank points. Thats the basic idea. We are still figuring things out on if they would made things better or bad.

    [1] Maps which are prefered by many players to be played over and over again to get a top rank. E.g. "spy" or "Care for your time"
    A calculation could look like:
    finishpoints + (rankpoints * finishes/100 * finishes/tees)
    and maybe modified depending on the server-type.
    Idea-set 2Show
    milk wrote: I like deen's global points system. It's pretty nice balanced and three different rank ladders give more information about players than one combined in any ways. But the problem is that everyone care only about global rank (1 of 3).

    Most regular players invest more of their time in type of server that they like. Same for speedrunners I suppose. I think the best solution would be to show all 3 player's ranks by server type where it was requested. Like:

    Code: Select all

    /points nameless tee
    *** Position of "nameless tee" on Novice:
    *** Map Finishes:    1. with 320 points
    *** Team Rank:     166. with  20 points
    *** Rank:          238. with   6 points
    Or somehow more compact or show it in scoreboard. And also show ranks by server type in the first place on the site.

    So my idea is to change focus from 1 global points rank to combination of 3 ranks by server type. Maybe it looks complicated at first glance but this is my point of view at this.
    dinner wrote: I think it would be a good idea for DDNet that when somebody does /points in a server, it not only shows the completion points, but also shows the teamrank and rank points. I realize that these points are not a great representation of skill either because you can get several top1s on easy maps (like how maple and I topped the novice server), but regardless, they are much better than regular points for showing skill. If teamranks and ranks are shown right next to points on the DDNet website, then why shouldn't they be shown in game as well? Another idea is to simply add /pointsrank and /pointsteamrank, so you can call those values to a server chat the same way you can with /points.
    Idea-set 1 + 2Show
    Basically it would take the idea about adding all 3 lists to the /points-request like: (global-stats only)

    Code: Select all

    /points nameless tee
    *** Position of "nameless tee":
    *** Map Finishes:    1. with 320 points
    *** Team Rank:     166. with 20 points
    *** Rank:          238. with 6 points
    For the calculation of the rank-points the system from idea 1 or another could be used to make good ranks more valuable. (If we find a good one.)
Summary:
  • We have 2 ideas which are very different in the point of how to handle different kinds of point-lists. One of them wants to combine them, the other one wants to keep them splitted and make the single lists more important.
  • Both ideas would allow to modify the calculation of rank-points.
  • The third idea wants to combine them and make a compromise for all kind of players.

Tell us which idea you would prefer! You have suggestions/critism to single ideas or even a complete new idea? Share it with us!

Re: New Point-system?

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:33 pm
by gdin
I'm a bit confused about the first idea. Are you saying that completion points and rank points would be combined so there is only one value? If so, I'm strongly against idea since there's a big difference between finishing a map and speedrunning a map - they should be separate. I think I might be reading that wrong though. Also I don't understand finish to tee ratio - is this the amount of finishes from a single player compared to a mean amount of finishes by players on a map?

For calculating rank points, it would be difficult to come up an accurate method/formula. Amount of finishes wouldn't be good to incorporate, since some maps may be very faily or not played as often, and still be very difficult to speedrun. Some maps may have few finishes, but still very good top times. For example, when I speedrun a map I often don't even finish it once before getting a good time - it really depends on the map and there wouldn't be a good way to moderate this. Also, the novice server will have many more finishes than the brutal or oldschool server, so balancing this would need to be taken into consideration.

An idea I would like to share is listing specific maps as "speedrun maps", similar to the "selected maps" on the servers now. These maps would be more inclined towards speedrunners and have more challenging times to beat. Having ranks in these specific maps would count for more points, such as 1.5x or 2x (whatever multiplier is appropriate).

I think the best idea presented here is the 2nd. For the thing with specific servers, I think the in-game command "/points" should bring up the global rankings by default. To view them for a specific server, you could add the name, such as "/points brutal". There could also be a rule or something saying you can only use the "/points" command every X seconds, so chat spam could be avoided.

The 3rd option could work as well, but only if a very good system is developed for rank points.

Just please please please don't combine the points into one value - this would take so much meaning out of speedrunning.

Re: New Point-system?

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:33 pm
by Aoe
tbh i like it the way it is.

Re: New Point-system?

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 2:40 am
by Welf
I think the point system is rather for casual players. They are like "ohh he is pro he got so many points" or "i don't play with you, you don't even have 1000 points".
Casuals usually don`t do speedruns (and a good rank 1 is hard for them, since they don't know enough about the game), so any change for them on to highlight speedrunners, might just annoy these players. They don't ignore top1 time, but it is hard to see, if a top1 run is rather perfect or easy to beat, especially on rarely played maps. Also the Speedrunners are highlighted in the votelist, so speedrunners get some fame.

As far as i see the rank/teamrank systems are rather broken, they don't really show speedrunners. So at first we should fix the speedrun system itself, before showing them ingame.
An idea which sux: We could set a "best possible time", so the closer you are to this time, the more points you get. That would show the real speedrun quality of something, but we can't make it like that.

In my opinion we shouldn't change the system right now, the chatspam would be really annoying and confusing, merging points would annoy many players/would fuck up the "normal" points .

Re: New Point-system?

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:02 am
by Novo
Whats the Problem with "chatspam" just put it in 1 line

Points "nameless tee" 2. With 1111 points ; teamrankpoints 2. With 1111 points ; rankpoints 2. With 1111 points

Whatever
Or am i wrong and its a impossible solution ;D

Re: New Point-system?

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:20 am
by Novo
Welf wrote: "so the Speedrunners are highlighted in the votelist, so speedrunners get some fame."
And this is .... bad ?

Welf wrote: As far as i see the rank/teamrank systems are rather broken, they don't really show speedrunners.


Ofc they dont show the speedrunners if u look on guys with less than 800-1000 team/rank points.

Welf wrote: "set a "best possible time", so the closer you are to this time, the more points you get. That would show the real speedrun quality"
I like this idea :) but i think 95% of the players dislike it :D
Welf wrote: "Merging points would annoy many players/would fuck up the "normal" points .
"

True

Re: New Point-system?

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:17 am
by Welf
Imo it is good, that r1 is highlighted (i wanted to say, that speederunners get something for their rank and are not totally ignored).

The "best possible time" idea itself is fine, but it's too hard to rate like 1,3k maps and it would kinda fuck up the points (no clean numbers). It would also be confusing i guess.

Re: New Point-system?

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:46 pm
by Chairn
Best possible time is really a good idea, but how to calculate it?

Re: New Point-system?

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:19 pm
by n000b
maybe the best possible time is the time that is the top 1 rank. and then all times got compared till there is a new top 1 rank?

Re: New Point-system?

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:20 pm
by Lady Saavik
this is how it works now