gendum by Im 'corneum dummy3-4

[Rico]

I am also not a fan of the how the community sees good maps nowadays. Faily oldschool maps style and cornerhooks till you get blind are the most played atm. Generica, Stronghold, Aim X are a few that are noticibly played much. Also you can make boring parts with just a bit of variation. Fast past gameplay with a rly good desing. The design let the maps looks so good for so many ppl. That is such a shame.
I must say it out loud. Tropica is imo a very boring map. Because the parts are just too short, no creativity in the parts themselves. BUT the desing is incredible well made. Tropica does not match the Mod 2* requirements at all imo. Its more like a novice 5 map tbh.
I should end it here since I might get sued if I say more.

Best regards Rico

[jao]

So your argument to release this map is that other (and somehow especially my?) maps are bad too?

[Rico]

Im just telling my view on this whole mapping situation. How the community sees a good map. There is no argument written to support the release of this map.
Maybe you misunderstood me. Im sry if it was my bad english.

Best regards Rico

[Welf]

I played the map.
I don't really understand the arguments of RayB.
About the "flow": I don't think this is a good reason to decline something. If there is a problem with the "flow", you can maybe make suggestions about how to improve the "flow"? In my opinion a "flow" is not a rational argument, it is rather based on a personal impression.
About the "ideas": Maybe this map has no real unique parts, but i see many maps which don't have really unique parts. This map has a unique map idea, so this map is something good. Maybe this is our new mapping style? Probably not, but this is something new!

Jao mentioned, that this map has not the fun edgehooks. I say this map is not based on edgehooks, there is more than just edgehooks. The edgehooks are just his style to make the part.

I didn't find more arguments against a release in this thread.

My personal impression is, that i don't like drag parts. It is alot of simple aiming and running without much coordination of these 2 elements, so the gameplay might be improved. I don't think that Im'corneum should limit hiself like this: he only used teleport and unhookables, he could do more enjoyable stuff with hookthrough. (Maybe some weapons would be nice, too).
I really like, that he used a new style of mapping. We don't have this every day.
I liked the difficulty, it was very challenging for me.

I am for a release of the map, because there is no good reason to decline it, we also have (i think) some people, who liked the map. And i assume we will find some players, who like it. Also the map is mapped with experience, there is not much annoying stuff, no big time waste.
(I also agree with Rico about map testing, but that is another topic and it does not fit into this discussion imo)

[jao]

About the "flow": I don't think this is a good reason to decline something. If there is a problem with the "flow", you can maybe make suggestions about how to improve the "flow"? In my opinion a "flow" is not a rational argument, it is rather based on a personal impression.

Why can't it be a reason to decline a map? It's a part of the map and it's really important for speedruns and the general feeling of playing the map. You can't really improve it without destroying the gameplay. The map always "forces" you into tight coridors to do the edgehooks. You don't have a lot space to move.
At least in this case, it's rather not something subjective.

About the "ideas": Maybe this map has no real unique parts, but i see many maps which don't have really unique parts. This map has a unique map idea, so this map is something good. Maybe this is our new mapping style? Probably not, but this is something new!

Just because it's new it doesn't mean that it's good. Only releasing this to figure out if people like it or not is also stupid. Releasing a bad map actually upsets a lot people. I think it's clear that not many people like the map (Im' corneum even said it himself). I don't see any real positive feedback, besides Rico's here.

Jao mentioned, that this map has not the fun edgehooks. I say this map is not based on edgehooks, there is more than just edgehooks. The edgehooks are just his style to make the part.

The map is not based on edgehooks even though it has 12 times the same edgehook? Remember that this map is short. To clearify why this kind of edgehooks are annoying: People like edgehooks because they can do cool tricks with them and because it often flows well. With this edgehooks you can do neither, it's like a normal hook, but forces you to only hook in a very specific angle.

i assume we will find some players

With this logic you could release every map. Having you say this kinda shows me that you think not a lot people would play it

[Welf]

About "flow":
Only saying "bad flow" does not help anyone. That does not explain an issue with the map. I don't know if forcing a situation causes a bad flow, it can still feel cool to hit everything? For me that is still not a reason, many maps have forcing situations. Maybe i don't FEEL it (i want to point out that rating a map is very subjective, especially rating the flow!).
This Video viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5218#p54062 seems to have a style. It can feel good, why am i not saying "good flow" now?
That is why "flow" is not a good argument for me.

Just because it's new it doesn't mean that it's good. Only releasing this to figure out if people like it or not is also stupid.

The map is playable. I played it and didn't got cancer, because of annoying parts. The map is well mapped, so we don't know if a majority of players will like or dislike it. Why do you want to make a decision based on your personal impression, instead of seeing what people say on the live servers?
["well mapped" means for me that we have a fluid gameplay, no dumb time waste parts, no dumb faily parts, no weird cockblocking mapping style.]

The map is not based on edgehooks even though it has 12 times the same edgehook? Remember that this map is short.

It is not exactly the same hook. At one part further in the map, you have less time to aim. There are some variations

I rather think, that corneum replaced the normal rehook thing with an edgehook. It is a mapping style. You can check Purple Panic for simple rehooks, then you can say "Purple Panic is a simple rehook map", while Purple Panic is actually more. So for me that is not a reason to decline.

To clearify why this kind of edgehooks are annoying: People like edgehooks because they can do cool tricks with them and because it often flows well.

This is your personal opinion? It seemed like Miltee (who is an expert at edgehook) liked the map. How do you know, that you are right with this? How is this a rational argument? People used to like "shit", so i don't see something bad about a style of playing edgehooks. I don't see why people would "hate" the map as much as you do

With this logic you could release every map. Having you say this kinda shows me that you think not a lot people would play it

It was my personal opinion. As i said the map is playable. In my opinion this is not more annoying than other maps in this difficulty, so i assumed, that they will play it.
Yes, arguing based on assumptions is wrong, but this assumption came, after i reviewed the map, not in the beginning, so maybe it is linked to what i said before?

Please give this map a chance. We should support rather unique ideas, if they don't suck too hard.

[jao]

About "flow":
Only saying "bad flow" does not help anyone. That does not explain an issue with the map. I don't know if forcing a situation causes a bad flow, it can still feel cool to hit everything? For me that is still not a reason, many maps have forcing situations. Maybe i don't FEEL it (i want to point out that rating a map is very subjective, especially rating the flow!).
This Video viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5218#p54062 seems to have a style.

Well I tried to explain it. Sure it can feel cool to hit everything, but there will be a lot tries you fail, imo this counts as well. It matters for the general feeling of playing the map, not only when you actually pass the part. Every video looks kinda cool if you do everything first try. Can't take this as an example for good flow.

Why do you want to make a decision based on your personal impression

If I wouldn't include my personal impressions I couldn't decide about releases. Why is this a bad thing? Do you realise that most of your arguments are based on your personal opinion too?

instead of seeing what people say on the live servers?

As I said, the overall feedback is that the map is bad. Im' corneum even thinks that not many will play it. It will basicly only get played for points and by a few people who might like it. The testing process is intended to figure out if a map will be played or not. Again, with this logic you could release every map. Releasing a bad map actually upsets a lot people.

It is not exactly the same hook. At one part further in the map, you have less time to aim. There are some variations

Sure it's not exactly the same, but it still feels the same. The variatons are very limited and some make the hook even more annoying.

I rather think, that corneum replaced the normal rehook thing with an edgehook. It is a mapping style. You can check Purple Panic for simple rehooks, then you can say "Purple Panic is a simple rehook map", while Purple Panic is actually more. So for me that is not a reason to decline.

With this edgehooks you can do neither, it's like a normal hook, but forces you to only hook in a very specific angle.

I'm aware that there are situations without edgehooks, but they make up only a small part of the map. If the most important feature of a map is no reason to decline, then I wonder what your reasons for declining maps are. Purple Panic's actually are simple rehook maps and if it wasn't a Purple Panic Purple Panic 4 would have been declined.

This is your personal opinion? It seemed like Miltee (who is an expert at edgehook) liked the map. How do you know, that you are right with this? How is this a rational argument? People used to like "shit", so i don't see something bad about a style of playing edgehooks.

It's not only my opinion as I mentioned above. You will always find one person who likes any map, even if it's shit. How is this a rational argument?

Please give this map a chance. We should support rather unique ideas, if they don't suck too hard.

What do you get from releasing this because it's unique? We already know just by testing that this is not something liked by a lot people.

I think there is a general problem here. Imo we should have double standards when it comes to releasing maps. It's totaly okay to make cuts if the mapper didn't get a map released yet, but for experienced mappers, who got a lot maps, we should rather care about the players not the mapper.

[Im 'corneum]

I think there is a general problem here. Imo we should have double standards when it comes to releasing maps. It's totaly okay to make cuts if the mapper didn't get a map released yet, but for experienced mappers, who got a lot maps, we should rather care about the players not the mapper.

So if I create a fake account and say this is my first map, it had a better chance to be released? What would this change for the players.
This is a neash map. It's not meant for the majority of players. That's what I meant when I said many will dislike it.

[jao]

So if I create a fake account and say this is my first map, it had a better chance to be released? What would this change for the players.
This is a neash map. It's not meant for the majority of players. That's what I meant when I said many will dislike it.

It was a general opinion, not related to this map. I didn't say that we should release shit maps only to make mappers happy, but releasing a bit low quality maps for new mappers keeps them motivated and that's often more important than making every player happy.
I wouldn't say that this is a niche map. It's like a normal drag map with an annoying style. You could use the "niche map" argument for a lot maps though.

[Shishigami]

I think there is a general problem here. Imo we should have double standards when it comes to releasing maps. It's totaly okay to make cuts if the mapper didn't get a map released yet, but for experienced mappers, who got a lot maps, we should rather care about the players not the mapper.

So if I create a fake account and say this is my first map, it had a better chance to be released?

I think what jao means is that you can't reasonably expect new mappers to polish a map to the same degree as an experienced mapper.
In the same vein, theres no excuse if an experienced mapper releases a map that does not live up to his own quality standards.
(As in: "we know he can do better than that")

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ALSO, ITS CALLED NICHE

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